so i'm i don't i totally don't even need this microphone "'cause" i'm actually really

loud what we're gonna talk about today is tag to pdfs and all the we're

gonna mention accessibility a little bit is actually is an accessibility presentation and the fact

that the accessibility logo appears on every single slide is just me spacing that out

and using the same temp let's i always still but our agenda is to talk

about tag pdfs what they are why we want them and how to make them

because once you find out what they are and why we want them

finding out that it's really easy to make them is gonna be quite

important in my opinion we talk about the current status of a project are actually

going to be talking about which is implementing detect pdf support and then we're gonna

demos are always subject to the double what fact and what we would be able

for you is totally screenshot of so we have screen shots we can provide demos

upon request and you fix the crash so we should be okay without but we

just don't see it as

you know absolutely park actually necessary

okay so attack P D that's kind of like a P D F on steroids

it has a lot more stuff than it lot of met information in particular as

you might of guessed from the name tag pdf it has tax element tags very

similar and in some cases exactly the same as you see in H T M


there are also I Ds for every single element

there's alternative text if it's provided and there's also i have to kinda google to

find out exactly what this means from the spec replacement text for symbols the spec

expect pretty

flexible but the first thing or the one above it alternative text for images and

other things like that those are like big phrases and descriptive

whereas for symbols

you could characters a single letter that's a graphic those kind of things so the

replacement text is assumed according to the spec to be a single character and that's

what the differences between those two things

okay right we want them and i told you i was gonna talk a little

tiny bit about accessibility what's motivated or implementing the tag speak with the tag P

D F's

is accessibility

because there there's a couple problems with advance as you guys may have noticed from

our recent friends of good

for into can campaign and i can't


it's so know just been fired from the board

for the friends of get numb campaign it's just a big old we need to

make the stuff accessible and part of that is no i believe zero accessibility right

now part of it is for non tacked pdfs getting the minimal level of accessibility

i want that will give users who are blind is accessed at about the level

of G at it

and as you know G at it doesn't have things like heading and list items

and stuff like that it's just text so having just text is better than having

nothing at all

and we're not gonna talk about that aspect of what we've been working on but

there is so much semantic and structural information in X M L mark

marked up mark up marked up documents like that something is a heading level one

or heading level to or a table and how many rows and columns are in

that table these were all things this site as you

these my stuttering a sighted users

we just look at and them you know we know what's going on if you're

user who was blind your screen reader needs to present that in speech and in

braille and in order for that to happen we need access to all this that

information and we don't have it because popular has absolutely no support for tech pdfs

by the way thanks again friends of you know this is lots of all some

stuff related to this whole project is happening because of that campaign


honestly i could care less about some of these things i am totally motivated by

accessibility but i think the rest of the community should really care about tech pdfs

for because of the items on this slide you know we keep talking about you


are we still calling it can all my last but we're talking about getting on

tablets and smaller devices with smaller screens

and if we can a tree flow these documents on you know a little and

very phone or if i don't phone that looks like my hundred phone if you

know the whole pdf experts is gonna suck on the mobile platform so if we

have tag pdfs we could really easily do re well

then the rest is the copy paste and export if i select text from an

a beautifully market pdf that be really cool if i don't lose not just that


but you know the fact that something is a heading

the fact that something is a table if i just get taxed

i might have to reformat it or at that point i might just you know

it might not be worth that i can type fast

okay so there's hundreds in the bad news because this is on the right if

you use lee profits

it and i'll show you a screenshot and then it is like to burke easy

it's like one step to export your document to tag pdf

so that means if you care about accessibility if you want the reef well if

you want to copy and paste it's a single step but that this is like

no little supports this alex said that a bunch of research the other day about

that's it it's like and they work now but i did it's literally were just

like no it's you know sky like soup nazi on seinfeld that X P D

F for you know there is and you know better than i do some people

are interested

that in fact is possible indication of will be looks at the documents is fine

because i've so you can just have to unpack pdf you can this problem to

all the T and they usually we ought to us but pca that means that

will docks cost all the is to all the information format

i don't know we looks can supplant respond to that idea but in because of

lactic there are a lot of interesting that because after all for example in that

kind of mix

they want to i mean is in is in a lot of faculties is mandatory

product to see have to complain it pdfs so they need that they actually really

interested because we want

mathematics be accessible

something that is not happening right now in the case of it works is also

happened same you when you say that's a P D F is there is no

provision to greatest target pdf bought you can spoke to all the we develop this

great that we did show them what i mean is that well just to do

is there so they are not using that and then there a lot of tools

that great E D S but they don't have in your children in the rest

of we don't know them tutors if i would have leds thereof

tools but then find then we will ask i would be an effective because they're

this is what happened with other tools to

i was kind of funny i said you know alex can guess this list of

all the tools and it's kind of like okay all these are now may i

stop now

it's like you can stop so there may be other tools out there that do

have this support that we found one it has perfect quick support i got a

whole bunch that doubt and then alex got tired

okay i'm hoping a you can ever get like an entire dialogue and big enough

but i'm hoping you can see the one little thing that's czech that's attacked pdf

and so basically all you have to do with sleeper office and this is for

brighter calc and it impress and presumably the others you just have to choose export

to P D F from the file menu dialogue pops up czech tack pdf as

it wanna point out is that right about that czech boxers pdf slash a one

and a all standards need to have lots and lots of letters and numbers on

them i don't know why that is actually you know we could be said that

attacked pdf a skylight pdf on steroids well this P D F a one a

it's kinda like pad pdf on steroids

and what it gives your excuse me the objective is for searching and quantum plugged

re proposing document content

and it includes and i don't understand this and standards at all i would think

that be would include a rather than a including be but for some reason the

one a includes one be and that like it's put on the slide it's about

document appearance

and we're gonna come back to that point in the minute structure and hierarchy you

know other child objects you know what are the parent objects you know what it

is actually a tree

tacked pdf which we've already talked about unicode character maps to be perfectly frank id

to go read the big sixty enter to know exactly what that means and what

is expected and language specification just what like which is something

so in terms of the current status of the work that's been done

popular right now some of that's and master a some of it's in a branch

but right now the entire document structure of tact pdfs

it's been implemented for poplar works posing all of this information for popular G lab

and there's some that if you who are like popular geeks there's all these different

tools to examined documents and information about the altars and all that stuff and those

tools of been modified to expose this information so that you can

verify that attack pdf is coming out the way you expect and popular

okay we have not yet got into doing anything with this in advance that's gonna

be the next main step and i put in parentheses you know then doing this

for accessibility because again this is this is what motivated all of this work

it's not what's also about all of this work that's what motivated it and we

can't of course expose what is not in advance to assistive technologies but that's the

next priority after about some

and terms of all the support that we've done the reason i put a question

mark by the are one be part

the one be part of the standard is because as you'll see in the fake

demo screenshot that's

we're already totally now able and exposing or preserving rather of the formatting

so what are not we done every last aspect of the standard i couldn't tell


i again i would have to read that standard very carefully but at least functionally

i believe that we have all that implemented

that pdf again is already done word exposing the hierarchy since i'm not entirely sure

what the official definition and spec requirements are for unicode character maps i can tell


and we

and we are already exposing these the language if there is a language associated with

an element

so i kind of already set this particular next steps are to do the a

bedside work

expose that to assistive technologies

and figure out exactly what the status is what the standard the last thing on

their this is i think it'd be one of those patches welcome some people just

i personally lovely profits some people don't because it's is big joining at the time

slow creature there is nothing we don't have time or the expertise quite frankly the

motivation to add export support in all of the tools that are currently no but

if you sell your favourite tool on there like that the community would welcome a


and information with the previous like that about

sport in the

to use in the that previous this is something like the F on that you

can problem

when we were when we were talking a lot about sort of also well we

use it is that they did he say that the well the results they were


your it is but i seen having target the previous for really target previous you

because one of the tools web upgrading the and the same in this a way

tools upgrade pdfs

well not with the really what is allow great impacted bps because

the P D of re a previous will not able to with a that's what

so i want one is the other reason that colours mention is that it's like

he said nobody knows what attack pdfs and that was one of the things that

motivated me you know telling you what it will be a why you should want

to make add pdfs but i would kinda argue that even if all you guys

start making packed pdfs there is actually still a lot of usage going out there

because the legal requirements you know if you are legally bound to have all of

your documents accessible euro you already know that had pdfs you are already producing them

so even if no one else is making had pdfs governments on educational institutions another

big people who could be sued for not providing documents that are accessible they're already

doing that at pdf colours to know that

okay and how going to the point of this is like that is getting because

this funny because now is them moment that we talk about

what is the world that

we have done but the three that within that do that but what so we

would like science i we imprisoned impetus

just heated up to work because we are really hard not experience are doing document

or something

we are calling about him document but just every night

so i thought that was most appropriate to go sweetie

we thought that was a perfect the best for him and we also though the

world was made by kind of you have at least a month in a piranha

beams are you was a review want to call so

i'd say and if someone is that some of the cold is right now i

did but we were repository right now we so it's up to parents in

you also in some but just some box and in fact some of the bass

were and a

quickly is this we we're where we were providing the demonstration because we were

using tools in fact the fish buttons about providing the tools with the support of

the or the target pdf and the other this at a little bar about a

meeting is it huh

right now

but in the previous weeks kind of the of was W more the call so

some of the buttons on that on that runs is already a master and is

going is and only be remote

and we have a that is life i mean we are we are the know

that and miss sorting a how i passed

how corpus is a task on light of quality strong what's easy but we want

to we added up that as light because

we wanted to and

give is probably to that is not a trivial task

and you have thought that is almost as much work import we have called on

them but we really because this is also in a important

as we are as the others

the support them pop of course that means that eventually some other a three communities

but so what communities like cute well

date is work and we say so we have

it is another example of whatever you some with all the official what communities

mm what i've this is what i'm saying i mean it's not very important how

much the lines about i mean the model sentences and i some popular three thirty

thousand nice some public really means that is not really a at work bone at

this is moment


S in the advertisements what we have it for what we have after so before

we have i to call pdf info that just went something in for a lot

of P D F also to cetera and then we have some tools that's great

is based on the P D F

it quit is based on the text

but was think there's without stupor and then we have another to that quick a

nice meal

in fact this is

well the reason we have that we mentioned that tool is because now event on

the look at least some people ask i would like to with the P D

F that i come to that with it being is not about what is what

we have to

and use it all cases is other people recommends to use P D F please

mail to take the pdf on which is to me a but the problem with

that is that you get a P D F without not something that you get

that it's to me it without noticed after

and this is a sample

i you at the i don't have to concede that during the pdf with here

somewhere that the stuff and at the right it's the mail that you

but before that you have work and you know it is the same at with

i'm not and formatting at all i mean okay you have the ball but engaged

me that you have you don't have the information about the kids for example if

you if you use a table

with that tool you who you will have only they can to do that they


just print just without any formatting so you don't know if you aren't it is

the only in this a controller on the second

and the second column

well this is

exactly this is what i was saying i thought also a

well i think that's probably for you would be for you can just a breeze

but if you if you thing they do pdf

when we pulled is this you can see at the right that you have here

is but only text a lot right so is without any formatting at all

so i can as a so we were saying we are going to support

and sorry we as are the and countless other that report of target pdf from

popular so they are so it'd to similar to use that support so i'll be

and weighted up to call pdfs to know that

if you don't do that there is one but you can things that this the

stupor the just to the to be have can things

so i've have some

sorry some you have a chance to be pdf in for you know the two

point just trooper finally

to our problems did it you know emotive to display to here


sure we have the same example

okay left you have to pdf and the right to have this communal but now


it meant to system to maybe so

well this is what i alluded to before it that if you remember before the

all of the formatting was lost that this gets back to that one be standard

that i need to read very carefully to see if we're not implementing any aspect

of it but this time the you know like the italics a man heading to

that carried over so there's and like i said there's an excellent chance the bulk

of thee one be standard is now implemented as well

i don't is working

and this is a screenshot of and the tool i mean and in that here

is easy if there's to see that now we have

a is true or of the document because we will have different blocks with this

H one means he there so we can see that it meant based approach but

probably it's you have to see with

with the department did you know

and we can see at

there right about of the right the screenshot that we can see this is to

prove using a at review

that show that you we have

a best and it meant that is heating and element that's a bar find them

and that's another here

we can see a next argument the sample with these items but i've got women


the then the nist at this to put in fact it is what i'm saying

with the previous business well we have the tooling was suggest getting the text a

printing need what printing on is pushing it but without mundane interceptor

and this is the case of the of i think that as you can see

bits to me and maintains is that was a table we have to can do

we have all the roles and with a put this is a tools we only

half it text

you but


you can see the and if you for that is a terminal the mel to

that you to maintaining the different

for all okay there's from the table

i think that

as you can see we are not doing a club time you know because we

have a really expose some these kind of presentations so we know that when you

do that we have minutes work it just depends to quest so we had this

question service as an see as i say you can

in service we are going to probably space

as limestone you contributing to tell you one so and you question

i you said one of the benefits of the tags was

for refund

and me and just

like revealing the ignorance here but i thought that one of the benefits of P

F was the it was always

like print perfect basically me view it so i was wondering like how the idea

every for fits into like the typical pdf

is case like it like the fallback mode or is it

i mean this is funny because when we were we have some for sits for

that one people website the same the same on the forums was saying was saying

that we did well not sort of all that maybe a puppy da was maintaining

that there for you


busily that in the end

you want to see the document don't know but there's no way of what is

the size of your screen show in what i mean is

for some local in this it's true that it doesn't make sense tutor for all

but from others

i mean it will be really strange if you need to force to share to

make a sort of this illness after don't want to see that probably

and thought there's some doubts about how to do that a how to probably that

but maybe a is having some

something similar to what it's demand has right now i mean in addition

and estimate happens and you have the roles are hard you move the mobile phone

is a about overflowing

that this

i mean i know that this

it's just train is actually say because they are you know idea of the P

D F was that but we also need to like take into account that these

that pdfs support was obvious

rescinded is less a presently you have if you have for the some yes

but they needed in the same way that there are you know that a proposal

to pdf was not was it was having something so more for really that that's

great but size then it just added to about to something like something more well

how to i don't know how to say that my documents friendly

gonna say something and that might be totally not real that like kerry as if

you a say a bullet is last

or a table and none of the if the fact that that's it actual you

know structural list or actual structural table is not known

what how was that tax cut around is it going to manage to and didn't

itself so it's not under the bullet on the second line or not and if

it's just you know where i mean i think lists items are gonna be the

the biggest use case but

my going but you know tape i'm so you know what i'm really liked so

that which is why i wear


i just was wondering

no if you will

i don't know we are written that actually question more

i guess i can see

we are getting


i just to repeat myself i think the but what instances the biggest one because


we can actually put these on the screen but before we did attack pdf support

people like character is strictly a character just like any in a and B S

C or whatever and wrapping that taxed will work but if we don't treat it

as an actual list item the indentations gonna be screwed up and it's gonna look


i have another question to actually

so you should a list of

of tools the

can help protect pdfs

earlier in your presentation

i was wondering if you also look that


consumers of P F it support take pdfs and puts the support like


so like the rear probably supports I P F but also like be this pdf

that yes support type you have placed in that also sort of drive adoption


really don't question because i think that we didn't get it

so those tools are tools that make pdfs there and support I P F

what tools that read P F support i our which class okay

we did we

but in the little world and if just what was in the pitch so we


it means will be the first one that will support that because okay we did

it is that because this is official where eve and so you know which will

talk about our spares but and in the rest of the world show windows are

that the stuff

and i've got we will unlock what about the right there is

the they wouldn't course

for example because of well support a spell target pdf

and at this address something that provided above is that is that is that how

it but also that

that we sorry so about be provided a planning or something like that to make

these we have to pdf

and now

because so we have these already doing that so

i mean thought in

a lot of

and government pages talking about and how the pdf should be so should be accessible

base a use accurate right that will be sort of that these target and

make sure that using that growing up right that we is a screen we are

that it it's work fine

and we there was of the pose well it is happening all is the same

the saying that means that they don't support like pdf in but for number one

of the samplers is this pdfs to do it it's to use of the word

for windows will about us is aware set of these is having the same thing

this is but it's also say is a spot to pdf but is not target


well we well this work with a tinge finished

we mean that up to fish or what communicate we will have one tool that

properly as well too bad pdf that is little things i want to that is

the teams that probably we target pdfs that would be more or less the same

situation that in the winter that is probably right about it


that the difference in terms of windows is that windows has had the ability with

it screen readers to provide access to tag pdf something to lose track but over

again kate now and that you know i know this is an accessibility talk again

that that's i can't separate myself from accessibility it's really embarrassing when people in the

work a list say you know i can use our cup with firefox and leave

are often do all this stuff and people say well what do you do to

read pdfs and some people say you know do the P D F to H

T M L that you lose all the heading information but what a lot of

people say as i bit into windows and i used jaws

so we were solving well we're actually by not having pack pdf support we're actually

sending people off to use non free software and now we're solving this problem

okay and a question sorry we are we are similar question

okay thank

what do you think it next most important thing is to accessibility

in get a but not really with you have

exactly and the next is sort of the

if i have a real that was will verify from on this where it was

not able to go to a presentation about well to the president about was able

to or worse will because the next thing for the next challenge for the so

this team will be the will answer about right now it is pi two

well it's with X in five first of them this is with X so that

made this bass will be

making sure that all other stuff works with waylon

in fact agree you have to dean is somewhat behind the other team's because as

far as the normal but down from can still people use

grading us some kind of this buddy mental bronze we the way that's about so

that means that without if you use the plants you can there is

probably is cost problem or something like that i don't know well the that if

you something to but i a list they

they will provide to the users

i way to this can so long way to and we don't have that on

it's pi so this is the next thing

is okay thank

and more question

i so i just i mean i know idea not has been video so does

when they is this is related it and to something like pdf innovations is it

could be used to something similar or if it's at a bit and related thing


i think that the different stuff and i think you know five anything that you

bins racial but adaptation


well i we supported a little bit but there was a google summer of code

project that sounds like it might not continue to do some work on that and

there's been a lot of discussion around making i don't know the specifics but around

making annotations way more cool so it sounds like they're that we have a little

support for it but we need a whole lot more but in terms of since

i've ovaries turned this talk into an accessibility talk now annotations to my knowledge has

nothing to do with tack pdfs in terms of accessibility after the annotations get implemented

we're gonna probably have to do a similar accessibility implementation

okay thank you

so i think that

no well thank you for being if you have been every question

you are