and the ladies and gentleman and it's my blessed to be here in sandy uh
but no and in this uh conference and then i uh i have a real
my presentation uh
i had quite practical and at the channel level i'm an engineer i'm not the
mathematician so hopefully this is okay to you
so um
and i will talk about the mess envision solutions and especially if although forest the
industry
and uh maybe the next slide that was more about motivation this is accomplished every
of my university in that in that a lot better and the and this area
is that so called in is like this trick area so it's full of the
lakes and forests
and the forests it is a big business big in the study in that area
so actually it's the area where there is the most then set at a number
of while males and solving this in the world
so it's quite natural uh since the six kilometres from our university there is a
big by a male and there are two other paper mills quite close
um about um
L one university uh it's one of the three a technical universities in finland and
here are our main focus areas
so green energy and technology
sustainable value creation and international have of R S and relations and you can see
because we are at the border is the closest to university to rest of the
so that's quite a match
so um and also my uh research area in must envision connected the forest industry
it's quite close to these calls
as you can later like to see
so this is our motivation this is probably very clear to you um what is
the motivation of computer vision and machine vision but from the practical point of view
at six i especially these and these are not of fake pictures these are real
pictures this is a person in uh mail paper mills laboratory to in serious uh
quality assurance testing
so it's mostly damman wiley and you as you can see it really minor
so there are some are based but it's
it's uh bring it on a piece of paper board and then this person is
used in magnifying glass checking
is it is it okay is the quality okay what this the prediction of the
usability of this um at the
and that this is how it should be done
so bill built in uh matching wits that's the same thing and the in the
standard last way one of the channel and C is there is that this depends
very much on human body and the uh and uh be right is based on
individuals a preference is still there is a slight variation
they are and also this monday morning and uh friday afternoon effect too
and this is a standardised way to do it
since this information goes from paper mail yeah males from this uh paper manufacturers to
a printing house that what is the quality of the product is any
and actually printing houses are doing their own similar tests so as to where E
Y
that opinion these the same
so this uh would be a standardised solution is
so uh
another thing of course is that this is similar don't knows task and some that
cell or spencer's at in the industrial environment
and uh this motivations i think you have a scene that it's fast the more
accurate less expensive i wouldn't say gee but i would say less expensive because that
must be sent to quality and easy to use is important
this
um people who will be systems they sometimes will get that it must be easy
to use
and sometimes the realm us to do not some in for my mation or two
months options which you never actually
so is it the use
and it's a good thing
and motley question of course is the replace human recent totally in this case that
somebody ways
so no human of we need it anymore at all a mess in instead
ses human-based and so sometimes to keep some hint this is mainly for example in
medical image processing
and then perform that's the time possible to human vision system you can imagine some
online uh solutions where you simply don't have ability to be so fast
when a paperweight is running the that the meters per second
so you that you can't handle that time sequence in your mind
or simply we don't have always in system can see spectral information for some
so this is our um
uh
some kind of uh starting point
and uh
this is just same shortly about the low-level auditory machine vision and but the recognition
of auditory we have we have around the when the people
doing this results and we have a it you kate the twenty seven uh doctors
in this area so in machine vision and many times the uh these theses they
are connected to real problems it's comes from industry go from bases
and we have around one million euros but here is how much it and six
hundred thousand euros just
is um
um external funding and of course L one bit main goal is to produce a
speed of common one is where these ideas could be implemented as soon as possible
in practice
um generally however is not only supporting building a built in a visual inspection systems
like here we have a many other areas like a fire model correlation here is
a bacterial a matter
so that sensors have a it's a consist of that there is not on any
electronics and then intelligent robotics and object recognition here face recognition and one area which
we especialised this medical images analyses and especially analyze civility not images so to see
some uh this easy some problems for example cost by diabetes
so that is also area
um if we think about the visual inspection actually it's uh um
it's a it's a actually what white lots color correction so there are many other
universities involved and also many real eight comp running so a lot of a lot
of all operation is needed and if we need to think about how one of
our main objectives is the develop novel results efficient and environmentally sound image in image
processing and image and the lies in met thoughts for machine vision applications especially for
overall quality assessment and control so the idea is to all these single measurements together
to be able to control in general
the whole industrial process
and we aim to offline and online solutions obviously that is a lot part of
our example in the preview on the previous slide that it is offline
uh solution because it happens in the laboratory but then we need also online solutions
directly uh in the industry
and mainly we are focused on forest and printing industry
so at the lower product already and the factory
about thirty level
and um if we think uh how
what is actually happening there you see that this contains look over different the industrial
is text there so it's actually quite complex uh combination before you end up to
get to have a lot of paper there are so many things happened before that
so in bright this we have a some would might be real then we have
well and then paper and finally some print so something you can print or
uh and uh if you think wow why to do it okay the results efficient
uh resorts in efficient uh environmentally sound production with no one data using less rollment
the real water and energy and actually this is a cool thing because this to
be environment three uh one shows uh use the same as the road using it
efficiently so there is no contradiction between these things because if you use less raw
material water and energy you save money and you also save environment
and the no other known quality means that the uh you use should put quality
as low as possible and it still feasible quality so it's still suitable quality you
can always book the parameters so high that the quality is high but you waste
a raw material what the energy and so on and you waste money
so as low as possible but still reasonable quality that's the idea so that these
than on quality and we'd without having some measurements and they interpretations we'd be gone
we don't know what these what these that quality so that these what we try
to write the so
actually our uh meals in finland they uh environmentally in very good condition because the
lakes around a white lee
and that we actually condo for two only you of lakes because then the for
its we like to do so we must really think of environmentally seems to
so um
idea simple in the way imagine they the automatic analysis and the in the forest
industry
uh we talk about this will also line quality has assessment business but this done
right traditionally manually
and the campy time calm you consuming and labourers to
then we have online quality assessment and then tool for real time control actually these
two areas and the research done their support this idea
to have a some kind of real two-dimensional uh quality control based and to advise
dimensional units
and uh what we have a
study we have had we see this as a as a collection of uh research
approach it so we invested
so we have one uh rotate which is dealing with power
so how to put this uh raw material in the bases for paypal make
and what could be done there
then the one thing is that what can we do um
connected to a paper messy so when real paper making is happening so and there
is a long paper my signal for one hundred be there with the long volume
along more what we can do there
and of course these are connected so if you know about the quality of raw
material here you can you can put this information here and you can take advantage
of that
and then this is your final product okay um here you can't do anything anymore
it's already they are so paper so after that you can only predict how to
print on and what is the pretty that uh applicability and run ability when doing
some pretty
and then
then uh we test the quality of the paper and actually finally interesting thing is
that how we see that you meets or something pretty become paper that can be
mortal human beings set preferences is connected to some physical much innovation measurements
so that's is that and the system will be nice that you put the print
into that find a much emission system any else that how human beings are uh
but if you're in this but it's
"'cause" uh the quality of an image but in it of course it's very important
you don't want to see some bad quality images but what is the bad quality
and what is that what did when i ask if i thought make the test
we you i assume there are some but em sis but there are some form
of that are still so this is a big question and this actually relates to
any image information problem whether it's print date or whether it's speech it's exactly the
same problem
problem
it's very uh and fess in a be much fascinating problem actually and what typical
i will solve some results about this before and the steps here
and what one wants to remember this that uh need for these kind of research
must come from the industry so every single project we have a start date has
started in that way that we have once industry what do you need and then
we have stopped at the check what we can
so it's actually it's not uh selling your ideas it's uh
asking needs and uh formulating the questions
okay us then i would like to talk about some um
things uh which we must consider and one is to recognize imposes phenomena
so actually what we should and this that is the question and the who knows
the ground rules and why and how
and
yeah and it is it really possible the model the expert knowledge
and uh this is a good question because we must we must talk to be
a those experts there is that the what they would like to know and what
we could see and uh
sometimes it's islands in if the data that is very mobile so even the expert
have an ever seen they the from some certain industrial processes
so this really needs need something in and actually i have an all this when
we are having them some uh comparisons that the and i is that where is
the ground rules if i'd use your data and uh and some might be just
looks good but that's not you know
you should really be fine ground and maybe to other researchers publish your mate complex
operation ground
of course in this kind of uh industrial pros project said this comes a little
bit be late because firstly analyze the possibilities to make a real part that are
based on that it is it's but it will come anyway
and is this possible that's and that's and other is you sometimes it might be
very seen that the sum intensity values that everything but
you don't know before you think it's
mister in optimality
so what utterances in image and so uh there might be some illumination problems or
it might be a typical place in there or you need some uh not reflection
information but that some transparent information
and then we call to this uh do we need multimodal information that many times
we need so we have a transmission in its we have reflection immediately may even
have some extreme images
we call the different scales there and how to put this together so we have
multimodal information and how to how to put it together and whether it supports to
each other
then understand in measurements
so a bible college on unclear categorization some more clustering need it so that we
know enough about they may not then we have the first define what are the
classes there
so clear when it's be about the like categorization then it's just classification but many
times as a question of this especially when it's number of data that what are
the other clusters
so this might be a challenge to all of course accuracy and computation time if
you think of this uh paper with running that the meters per second you have
two options you where infrequently uh to sampling but the image resolution is uh low
or you have a high resolution but then you don't do it so frequently
and our idea is to go to this overall quality management and approaches process control
so step by step we more accurately know which kind of uh paragraph we will
get
and this is this is about how been and actually this goes into those of
previous steps as
as i mentioned
and there are some certain uh process phenomenon so probably means that the uh we
make a raw material for people making
so we need to check some certain things like uh i other some extra particles
they are which are not wanting to be there and the basis actually about suspense
and he meets so it's a liquid these is the right this is the right
about C have been some i'm one D the objects
and uh number of a number of this and what they do or distribution of
this on one be the object of like say that well
so mess are in these things
different kind of uh i things even for a sense and spectral image and then
this analysing part
so here are some examples here and one thing you know very important thing of
course is to understand the uh fibres that fibres uh distribution and position
so i'm not will industrial data for the uh
by new image and solutions and uh i'll idea is to pull inside the pipelines
which is uh have not been done so our data is totally novel so wipers
are you know interest the particles buckles and sales these bubbles the lapel approaches there
is some you know their problems there
and then how the form and the model the ground rules and this need something
can because if it's a mobile make the so there is no a human expert
that's believable expect is about
but the there is six but is about the uh i mean
so that can be used
uh and uh then uh one thing there is a segmentation the fibres another particles
in suspense and emits is still this is really weak
lee we thing and we have a done that the uh results and why this
piper's must be uh and the last is that you should know the uh three
species there it may sound strange that don't they know what is there but it's
not necessarily always the same tree and same kind of three material so uh the
know about these three C Cs is important and again this means that the this
viper is broken in the back leeway that later when you breed
how can they need that kind of uh fibres it's bad property
so the to detect number of things
is important
and we have some applications about this
if you call to my list of uh applications you see that should have that
six
then another use you uh not only five course but problem side important because particles
tell about some approach the situation and how they daily the daily and in that
way that um when there is a certain amount of purple bubbles the process is
uh okay so that such a certain size and certain volume distribution and how they
do it now when they are aligned in a factory they do it in that
way that they'll and the process for let's say two hours to be sure that
everything is okay but one hour would be enough
but you don't know that if you don't have an image
nonetheless
so you put even got terms is processed by means of halls and that would
be you say in
but you need in leeds analyze the solution for that so we have real the
field of that kind of a solution and we will shortly present this is very
impressive results and icp our conference in japan in november this is a couple operation
results with the tech technical university
we propose that matters
and actually this is a this is a quite challenging problem although that looks so
originally quite easy and if you have a some uh proposals or something to the
to this problem i'm very happy here you or your I S
so it is not easy
since it because these problems are not that we're a circular problems so they may
be deformed so actually we are dealing with the P Cs or for some kind
of circular say and we need quite the white mats thinking how to make it
that efficiently and then we must detect the problems in order to be able to
estimate what so from problems we estimate the volume has some value there and sof
detection of problems as important than in this case of course detection of the become
problems is more important than the than the small ones
but also this distribution map cell from distribution experts can tell something
and uh we have actually ended up matt's of thing you know feel that in
how we get some kind of suitable it speaks
and enough of those and how we start to combine of these pixels because then
never ideal unfortunately it's a liquid and it's also problem of three-dimensional imaging
there so but uh i must say that then we have got quite a very
good results and surprisingly this uh this uh false negatives some false positives they start
to compensate each other and uh not most of that we can detect right so
we can really get true positives but the so surprisingly um well then of course
the question these that what is the what is the ground and that because of
bases you we have given the experts to select a level of confidence
the whether there is a war or and solar or totally unsure
because it's not so clear what his answer to so
so these contains all the nearly all the possible problems i enumerate the in the
couple of slides ago
okay but that the that the say that the pc is challenging from the uh
point of view we mix process
some people sometimes say that all you test an application itself see but we are
dealing with the fundamental issues of image processing
okay then and that other thing that the uh okay fibres
um couples
so five resigned the liquid
and this is bob suspension bubbles in about suspension but this is the right biopsy
so when the power was ready each tried to be more to uh to a
paper mail and this is really a tried C and E there should be only
uh suitable rollment the we only but all these so with this dog you the
there's something and one it's um the particles because of what's something's there might be
even this and they are
so any anything
uh
the right of course the different kind of categorization even plastic
or some unwanted what would my
so it would be good to categorise these
different kind of uh the particles "'cause" that's there was the quality of the biopsy
if there is no the particles it's a it's a great but the problem she
for paper make
and so we need to a here the segmentation and then classification of these this
that the particle physics
once again we are dealing with the quantum fundamental issues of image processing and analysis
and here is a slight problem because we must do this testing that the laboratory
label
see scenes uh
uh if we do it online
then uh we wouldn't have time to do analyses so what we have done we
have a uh at the laboratory we have a creative israel about six and in
that way that the experts have really put the ground rules there
and then we can test whether we can recognise this separate that the particles
at the moment there is no analyses
you just put up sixteen and you hope that you will get would like
so that's motivation to build the system to do that and S
okay then let's go to the know now we worry at in the powerpoint so
a would deinterleaving liquid and do some processing there it can be column mechanical then
you get that right biopsies then you put these power seats uh to a paper
machine and then you start to make paper
and the um main question is that it is that it presents and this represents
a paper a bit so that what is running from the beginning to this and
when the product is ready uh the question is that can we see here or
something
something which we should uh is that the react to something and actually um now
there are some line scan or switch to body weekly scanning but that it's of
course different than the two-dimensional to time instant no uh real time image and uh
because of scanning
we actually can on see this kind of till the problems which you may see
basically simple maybe you somehow can see that and uh of course of human being
can see that's that the meters per second so close to plastic on C so
you're we must rely on these mis ordering systems and line scan risk on to
it because the coast line by line so idea is to take a real the
dual diamond two dimensional units uh challenge there is that we need eight income it
is
and put all these images together
and so it's quite the real-time problem and also build in an image problem too
because of uh some uh geometric uh imaging problems and things like that but that
we can do so we can find
fine these kind of because these problems these sideways problems they are because of some
uh not so accurate tuning at the beginning of the process and you can tune
the parameters there but you must know in which way so this gives feedback
they're to do this do you
so how to produce and use real-time two dimensional web white image state the problem
of or on online uh control
um then we can go uh further in our analysis uh we can we can
focus on at some uh more accurate level uh and uh get some information and
why we uh this is some kind of closer close up a information from that
with uh paper web that area
and there are some uh phenomena we should see that how actually the white borders
are grouped there that's important but if that my signal then we can then we
will get nice paper and print on it then we apply but there might be
some grouping problems and this that was also about
do
and uh here we can do this a multimodal problem because we have our lower
low resolution high resolution images we have a reflectance it means it means we have
transmit dance emits we have seven of images and how to help able to put
these things together and we can have some other kind of measurements to so we
have a bit different kind of a units in many thoughts and how we can
put them together so here for example the segmentation and analyze of three five or
flocks using transmis tense images
and when the orientations are nice then it's okay maybe when you have a at
the right that the other paper you know this that it that the there is
very nicely there some certain direction about another direction that some and the that's because
of
on purpose it's made in that way
and uh
so detection of surveys orientation is so one thing to uh check and then of
course the challenges here that how we get these correspondences when we have a different
kind of image state that from the same
so we have a correspondence problem they are
so how to do image registration
and why we are interested in surface orientation is that it's affects directly but
and then after we have got this paper then we can test what we call
and we have build the system to do this that and the vices
and so is to do this
the similar kind of solution to everybody
not depending on the human brain
and let's see what we can see from that so we can we can have
a different find of uh measuring devices here and the what we i'm gonna speech
in this uh for one is an to be in and evilness of print in
misery you know name it so it's modeling so we should pretty that the uh
if we bring the blue or lost by their how well how you nibble form
this
and can have some kind of my sermon some estimate and it's called model in
the in the printing industry
"'cause" if that was crying is not uniform it disturbs you i and you think
it's about three i think this is maybe
but pretty but you can see if you if it wasn't
so that's a one thing somewhat yeah modeling detect the modeling
another thing is that the
how will this step putting in happens on the survey so it's called haley a
test so detection of missing dots in that this but it is bought to say
about this that this is mostly about some uh frequency feel that in of different
kind of a yeah yes so that's a technique and then the question is then
how we weight of those different frequencies
it's as the linear combination or are there some coefficients with the with the combined
or something like that here this is very simple test the new print of on
a paper sleep uh don't red dots and then you simply calculate which starts are
missing because it means that the so face is not so cool and this simple
man in this woman in the picture was really count in and where is that
when the at the missing dot from the beginning and he may shirt she mesh
shirt that in millimetres and role there that ninety seven millimetres from the peak that's
the quality while the longer the better
so and we also made it is uh there's the one we used it is
there's another and we automated the this column
so ago that was automatically this of course the question there's a one challenge that
what is the mission of how much must be missing or and then person be
left there "'cause" of course this is natural situation this is not by nist
then uh um some small be there is how they sexy carissa must of these
is about that how these uh
this actual but it looks
what we can see from that from a single small not
it's obvious where about the predictability this is a part of an ability in printing
the it's called the peeking test that you press harder and harder that the that
uh test sleep until it breaks
or some i'm a other that meets this will start to happen to
so for usually uh and this is the border it's they're starting to see some
phenomenon the subways and when it's a paper it's imprecise the der of
so it totally breaks and the question is that how long you grow until it
starts to add to your break and once again people are doing by and calculating
how many millimetres from the beginning to that place and of course it's a at
the request and we have this happens this a one D uh phenomenon of the
early
and we have a thesis about
this topic to so this terms of butter unappealing the longer the better
from the printed point of view
and uh here is an example about the speaking tests he actually here you see
what happens the paper it simply start to tear off and this is not what
if the value and what and or it usually neighbour will S is that the
overall but there will become sums of place the effects there and this is able
to a little bit harder to define because there is no except order here is
quite clear that simply breaks here and that's the distance
and actually this company's we sell in this device it's called laplacian technologies our doctors
have a used up list a all pole one and they yeah selling this product
uh for this text
and this is about this missing don't the problem that
this print starts here and you put in the pixels and then you start to
check that how many pixels up the uh missing and that when the L one
is the
is the definition i is that where these come from and i think in a
laboratory level in those paper means they have just decide that it's twenty
so it's some kind of practical
practical value but you should always have some but i think the uh this twenties
in that way that you would never go to the end
it's comes from that it's better not to say that like one of our doctoral
candidate set in the doctoral dissertation examination that why is this threshold speech P and
he replied that that's a good number
but i don't recommend this was there will prefer that with questions after that
okay then uh and next issue when it's really pretty print it on um how
we can uh estimate the quality so which one which looks better and why because
you may have a different print the brain there's different papers different images how do
you can say that which one is better
so what we need to we uh selected some S in recent measurements
and we have the department of psychology from helsinki university to do in experiments with
humans asking their opinions and then you know how to do it we don't know
as engenders but they know how to do it so they collect be it's a
human being subjective but uh
what if the attributes and then to be put them together to get some kind
of well overall image quality index and with this index we can we can have
that
double for example then images and we completely in order and hope that it goes
in the same way as human being would have prefect
this is quite challenging results research to
uh in this results we have a couple of things to do is of course
because we need to expect around rule so we need to digitise image so we
must the register very uh accurately this data test images units and that's a one
uh thing is this uh and uh occur missile inequality and uh locate in those
areas which we have miss that one doctoral thesis is about that
so the predicting human humans experience of image quality for print the image
and the then we calculate the this uh like a bayesian network model that
weights the all these simple things uh seem not seem well in a way simple
measurements affect the most and um it's maybe not surprising that close is one of
those modeling is very important and colour but this time it is a really experimentally
proven because we really fast
is a human being set a group to tell they opinions and these opinions were
really model and compared to
real but uh physical my matching pursuit measurements
so this is not the case this is really the result
and in this thesis by almost and allow you can be more
um then uh i'm approaching the and only a couple of slides left here an
actual level with you with numbers because these are selected slides not fifty so far
so um and that next question is that what i've mentioned is at that the
how well does this depend on which kind of image you
and yes it does very much
so then we would need the system to finalise what is the content of an
image
to have a
E meets content based this one lady
so it would change based on image content because many print this or see it
on screen it's it has different preferences we deal than scene this and this close
to very current hot topic uh visual object categorization so how to and especially in
this unsupervised manner because we are not interested what are the objects at all we
are just interested what objects are important
and uh
we don't even without knowing what though they are
well let them to affect this decision making
so we are dealing with unsupervised the visual object that the crisis and then we
need the ground rules so we did i tracking
and to see what are the salient features for human brains beings and one in
a thing is that what are these images how what is the perfect test images
that that's a that's a big question because uh you may have a some kind
of side effects if you don't the
landay's in which is carefully enough and that's why we have from all the university's
media technology specialists who were preparing these images for us
and uh
uh
and then uh we ended up really the to do this uh visual object categorization
results and um well idea is uh use in self organizing map uh of for
a clustering of these objects and finally get these categories so but the visual codebook
use in
self organizing map the component it and the also some uh evaluation techniques then we
have a new uh we use uh published new images uh it said so randomized
object so we make the tricks with the for foreground some background images and also
saliency detection
and this was connected to the sidetracking the results
and all also
also better techniques for what this categorization
and uh we have also published the uh totally new limits that it's dealing with
up static images where we are interested this ci tracking when we have a collapsed
of images so we don't have any background to
there we have learned to do something
and then we take that how i look at the conversation goes with the results
from human being which was of course a lot of variation
because they were absent images
this is will be published in icp
we sat besides this doctoral dissertation this
there are there um many other details yeah in with these applications for the uh
forest industry but since i have limited time these i want to the selected so
so thank you very much
yeah
that i
i
it is difficult to the question and answer is that to my both are important
so actually what we finally would like to know is the volume of a of
those problems there
so then uh we need to detect the problems and but also distribution tells about
the process so about been experts can deal when the distribution changes
so both are unimportant and of course we make a quite a big assumption here
that uh if we think that this is a two dimensional bubble uh you meets
tells about the volume button roughly it goes right
in liquid
uh in this case would actually be are not and we um because these imaging
conditions are quite a typical bits totally inside the pipeline and some liquid is run
in there and we rely on that fact that at the place where you we
are sampling three presents the whole like with the area that might be a little
bit risky assumption but uh we uh we had second the possibility of having the
uh more images
uh
yeah
um
yeah we have a certain number of people first of all form in this uh
this uh a human soppy neon and then uh from their we tried to from
very low level attributes to build the higher level attributes
and the then uh koenig can make them to the physical measurements of is eight
samples of since we know each sample and we note no opinion of a human
being of from each sample and then uh then be uh for uh yeah
start to see the changes um actually it's a it's just send set us up
uh some kind of a curve but unfortunately i don't have the curve here we
very use it's like a rock or
and you check that how close you must goal that yeah this uh but utterance
order
close to the to the mean opinion score so that is the idea so it's
a little bit X experimental you have i understand your question but the that we
can say that it's a direct physical uh example exhumation which tells that very good
question
yeah this one
i
yeah
i
um
i actually um
uh we were of course we must have a normal each of these classes for
unsupervised and so what about what about what the band when checking the result of
an unsupervised uh
clustering but we have to do that without any knowledge of those classes
yeah so we have like we have about like uh database and there we have
exact knowledge of those categories and we at the end we check how it goes
so actually it's a huge the map where all these objects are clustered and then
we can start to see how it goes
and uh of course results are not so called then in a in a supervised
but we were quite surprised about one thing that is that the how a unique
the ballot the six people have used like something like uh having twenty of the
images and saying something about unsupervised clustering so we used hundreds of maybe six
for this
oh
i
actually we are trying to mister those things which affect the quality and actually they
affect the usability uh process is there
yeah
hmmm
well as well that's a of it that's a physical actually property of the paper
how we cepstral observed scene for example and that's quite the engineering style of testing
that there is really putting on the paper and then start into account where other
areas it up selves okay and we really doesn't to properly
yeah and before it happens that paper then yeah because actually we pretty there is
there are not so many technical problems anymore we have a somehow assume that
when the paper is okay it's not anymore so pick pretty the quality papers okay
ooh
i
uh excuse me what it what was
i mean how well you all these solutions might be what we said difficult to
say uh um then uh of course you can calculate the salary of those people
work in that club or authorities
and sela and the than the price of that uh
that solution that machine so that so quite easy to calculate but then when you
go to be clear peak approach to cease in paper making or impala been
that's a little bit more difficult to calculate but if you see that clear peak
lisa in the use of a raw material and water and unity i think the
estimates have been even up to forty percent
which is a lot of money